| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| gmac |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 13:30:37
Before we start this one, please remember each have our own opinions on this subject so please keep responses civil, as this has the potential to be a good discussion / debate.
Personally I really have no objection whatsoever to hybrid snakes, so long as when they are marketed they are identified as such, I cant comment on telling the difference by appearance as they havent been produced to date. There will always be people looking for that something different. And as far as I know I don't see any reason for hybrids not being produced in the wild and not in a lab, perhaps geographically for the boas but I cant see any reson for the likes of the corn, ratsnakes and kings breeding in the wild, is always a possibility.
"If its not available in the wild then it shouldnt happen in the lab" from my very limited understanding of the BRB there are 3 traditional morphs (hypo, anery and ghost, so far) of these 3 there is one captive bred morph which is the ghost. Again colour and pattern type BRB's are all line bred to enhance traits and are all readily available, it is exactly the same as the corn snake morphs. All breeders and I include myself in this will try to produce the best morphs, colours and patterns we can when breeding snakes it is just part and parcel of snake keeping / breeding.
My only problem is not with the hybrid / integrade animals but the owners who then try and pass them off as what they are not, as mentioned above I cannot comment on the appearance of the BRB/CRB as it hasnt been produced yet, however in the corn world the creamsicle (amel corn x great plains rat) has the appearance of a corn and has and will continue to be passed down as a corn. It is these people that require a level of education.
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| andi |
Posted - 08/10/2011 : 23:21:49
wow that took a lot of reading.....
i see points to tryin to mix the gene pool up a bit but disagree with it to some degree, im fairly new to reptile keeping i will add and dont know enough on breeding snakes or geckos etc just now
but i am a vet nurse (and a falconer also) and see dogs mixed all the time for wotever reason but the breeds are gettin worse, genetics are gettin worse and hereditory problems from breeds seem to be most dominant for example take the labradoodle lab x poodle which started as an experiment from a charity to gain allergy free hard working medium sized luving dogs but wot has inevitably happened is the hairy ears that poodles get has been crossed with the poor joints from the lab to get a medium sized, wire haired dog with poor joints and hairy ears so effectivly u have something worse than wot u started with
i am also aware of falconers AI different breeds of falcon to get better hunters such as the applomado x gyr to get a larger faster bird which never really happened
there are so many different species of snake out there to choose from that i do not see the reason ppl would want to mix species to get something different, it isn't like ur breeding for a smaller faster snake or allergy free hard working snake, its purely for our curiosity to see wot would happen, and as the saying goes curiosity killed the cat or in this case the snake!
and i know that to a degree thats how morphs prob came about but i like snake species in their normal colouration for a few reasons, coz in a few yrs maybe even a decade there will be so many morphs that normals will be gold dust to get hold of and if we start mixing up the gene pool too much we will risk killing off the species altogether, yes ok maybe a bit far fetched just now but hundreds of yrs down the line u'll prob never get a royal python in its natural form
who says we are allowed to play god anyway?!?!? |
| Welly |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 19:14:35
Cant say i am a lover of hybrids.
But as long as there is demand for the weird and wonderful and there are people willing to pay for it then it will always happen. |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 03:05:34
I thought I edited that already, sorry. |
| gmac |
Posted - 28/08/2011 : 00:16:16
wasnt moved is a new thread. |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 27/08/2011 : 23:39:57
So just out of curiosity why did this get moved? |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 20:36:40
Great discussion, everyone! |
| gmac |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 09:49:07
quote:
Originally posted by gluttony32
its almost as if people just want to be the first to breed something just to say they did....
Agree with this totally. |
| gluttony32 |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 09:11:31
Also as far as rainbows go, they are all beautiful in their own right, from the peruvian, the brazilian and the catinga and any others that i missed, Imho its ok to breed them for traits or hets such as anery, bullseyes, hypos, blushes as long as it doesnt involve interbreeding between different localities. brazilians with brazilians and colombians with colombians...its that easy. |
| gluttony32 |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 08:57:39
hypotheticaly If you have a pitbull and his bloodline is championship breed...or maybe he is just a good looking dog, intelligent and loyal, do u breed him to a mutt or a similar dog? I have 2 and would never breed them to anything less than what they are, why should it be any different for snakes. they result might look cool but its not a full blood. has anyone seen a pic of a rainaconda? its a supposed hybrid of Eunectes murinus/epicrates cerenchia? cool looking..sort of... but why would anyone breed it? money? its almost as if people just want to be the first to breed something just to say they did...I do not approve of hybridization in anyway shape or form, thats not to say that i would not rescue, foster or adopt one, but I would never ever pay for one.
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| CDN_Blood |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 21:15:00
I don't see many people using a Register type idea. I think the vast majority of today's keepers are strictly in the hobby to fill their pockets and don't really give a damn about the snakes. It's sad to say, but that's certainly the case over here, and they'll do and/or say anything to get that cash in their hand  |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 19:46:02
I agree that would be a potential solution. However, the reptile industry, by its very nature, tends to fly under the radar, and many breeders -- especially the small home hobbyists, or those who own low-grade pairs they breed only as a side-line for extra cash -- would not register. (Even if it were required by the industry and/or law, I suspect that would be true.) Thus, the problem would persist.... |
| gmac |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 18:08:19
quote:
Originally posted by Snakesitter
I am 100% in the against-intergrades camp. Probably the biggest reason for my stance is honest and accurate reporting.
Graeme, let's pretend you breed a Brazilian and a Caatingan, making a litter of 15 pretty little babies. You then sell these little bundles of joy, making sure to inform each and every buyer both upfront and in writing that these are Brazilian-Caatingan intergrades, not purebreds. Three years later, one or more of these customers breed their intergrade to another rainbow, probably a Brazilian. Can you guarantee that each of those offspring will be honestly and accurately represented as a 75% Brazilian-25% Caatingan rather than a generic "Brazilian"? If not, your original innocent intergrafe experiment has just diluted the overall gene pool, as now snakes with 25% non-Brazilian genes are polluting the purebred Brazilian gene pool.
While I realize this is just an example, I would bet a lot of money that this is exactly how it would play out. Thus, I am against it.
Respectfully,
the top paragraph now this is my biggest worry in all honesty not so much the breeding.
There are numerous occasions where the mods on our sister site have to remind people on TCS that the snakes in the classified are hybrids.
the next worry would be new hobbyists that dont understand or aware of pacts of breeding the hybrid / integrade.
I apologise for going on about cornsnakes but I am aware of the issues regarding them more that BRB. Where I do see a problem with integrades in BRB that is not there for corns, is the numbers of them. There is a larger number of corns around than BRB so I agree there is a larger potential problem with integrade rainbow boas.
The only way around this is to have a register of BRB breeders similar to corns now, where you can register each animal its parents and offspring etc. Traceability will have to be introduced at some stage. |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 18:00:03
> Also agree the BRB base will always be there
I'm not so sure on this one. I think that once the door opens to intergrades, that clock will start ticking. |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 17:57:20
I am 100% in the against-intergrades camp. Probably the biggest reason for my stance is honest and accurate reporting.
Graeme, let's pretend you breed a Brazilian and a Caatingan, making a litter of 15 pretty little babies. You then sell these little bundles of joy, making sure to inform each and every buyer both upfront and in writing that these are Brazilian-Caatingan intergrades, not purebreds. Three years later, one or more of these customers breed their intergrade to another rainbow, probably a Brazilian. Can you guarantee that each of those offspring will be honestly and accurately represented as a 75% Brazilian-25% Caatingan rather than a generic "Brazilian"? If not, your original innocent intergrafe experiment has just diluted the overall gene pool, as now snakes with 25% non-Brazilian genes are polluting the purebred Brazilian gene pool.
While I realize this is just an example, I would bet a lot of money that this is exactly how it would play out. Thus, I am against it.
Respectfully, |
| gmac |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 17:55:46
quote:
Originally posted by CDN_Blood
I think the most ridiculous (and I don't use that word lightly) example of hybrids are SuperBalls, which are Blood Python x Royal Python. The logic for my distaste of such a thing is that the 2 animals are so radically different from one another and have hugely different husbandry requirements. It's absolutely unnatural. I'm not a religious type, but if I were I'd go so far as to call it an unholy union. It's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned.
It's one thing if both animals in question have territories that overlap as is the case with Morelia intergrades, but things like SuperBalls are just a horrible endeavour.
Now, where Rainbow Boas are concerned, while it's still all in the same family, I just wouldn't do it, personally. I think we'd find that ghosts, anery and hypos are indeed naturally occurring mutations if we could penetrate deep enough into their natural territories and study them for any length of time, but I doubt we'd find many as those mutations make them more visible to predators and the chances of finding any that have reached maturity in their natural environment are probably quite slim. I could well be wrong, I just think the chances of those morphs being natural are higher than we may think.
I'm not terribly worried about RB intergrades, I just wouldn't do it myself or recommend it to anyone. I don't see the base subspecies being lost among them - they're too special on their own to be taken over by intergrades.
a few good points, the one that really confuses me is the newest monstrosity (my term for it) is the BalTic, while it is one thing pairing similar sized and shape snakes I really see no point whatsoever in pairing a Ball python with a psychotic reticulated python. you are taking what is generally a docile and rather, and for fear of being banished from the royal python, boring species and pairing it with a not so docile species. Who knows what the animal is like in the end it is very Jeckyl and Hide.
Also agree the BRB base will always be there.
and for the royal lovers out there that may be offended by my description of them in my defense I have 3 normals  |
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