| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 30/01/2011 : 21:09:52
This is the female rainbow I got that I am not sure about what kind it is. If some one could help me out that would be great. This is the only picture I could find of her. I still can't find my camera.
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| gmac |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 13:32:21
I think what we shall do is leave this thread alone and I will create a new thread for this discussion, it is an interesting one.
Hybrid discussion here http://www.therainbowboa.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=1215#7809 |
| CDN_Blood |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 12:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by gmac
All breeders and I include myself in this will try to produce the best morphs, colours and patterns we can when breeding snakes it is just part and parcel of snake keeping / breeding.
Now see, this is what forums are all about - to get people thinking, talking and sharing ideas from which we can all learn 
I actually feel totally opposite about keeping snakes. I don't breed them because there aren't enough serious keepers in my area that I feel would commit to the animals, but if I did at some point decide to breed a few, I'd make every effort to maintain the original species, and I think where Epicrates is concerned, there is just no way I'd want to dilute the gene pools. I do have a Columbian subspecies and an Argentine ssp. but would never let them mate. I find the two distinct animals much too beautiful as they are, and would not want to distract from their individual beauty by mixing them.
I'm the same with my Bloods - I have a female Borneo Blood and 2 male Malaysian Bloods, but would never let them get busy with one another because again, they're simply too beautiful to allow the gene pool to get muddy and detract from either subspecies natural beauty, not to mention how frowned-upon it is mix them in Blood Python circles. I'd be ostracized by my Blood buddies, and I'd deserve it.
I feel it's my duty as a responsible keeper to ensure preservation of the natural lineage.
To add a touch of confusion, I do have a Morelia intergrade in the house. As much as I like the snake, I did not seek her-out or pay for her - I would never purposely acquire or pay for an intergrade or a even worse, a hybrid. Someone asked me to take-in this animal after she was left behind by an owner who didn't want her anymore. She's a stunning snake, but again, I'd never let her breed because she is an intergrade.
The intergrade vs. hybrid thing is something we should perhaps mention here as we are in fact debating an intergrade and not a hybrid. Intergrades are when 2 subspecies of the same family are mixed, and a hybrid is when 2 snakes of separate families are mixed. As this debate is about a Brazilian being mixed with a Columbian, any resulting offspring would be Epicrates cenchria intergrades, just for the record.
I strongly urge anyone not to create intergrades or hybrids, I (or anyone I know) would never even consider purchasing one and I personally frown on the idea of supporting such breeding projects, but it's not like I can stop someone from doing it, and it's not like we all share the same values. As long as there are those like myself out there who believe in preserving the naturally occurring species & subspecies to balance those who think it's okay to pollute the gene pools, all I can do is hope it does balance itself out in the end.
If you've ever visited my website, you've noticed that I'm all about ethics and responsibility. After being in the game for 24 years, seeing some of the things I've seen and seeing how the hobby has changed to radically over the past few years, I seem to be a bit of a dinosaur with my idea that it's all about ethics, but I'll stand-by my ethics to my last breath, thank you, lol.
This is a hot topic in my books and I feel very strongly about it, so please excuse me if I seem to be ranting a bit. I'd be happy to debate this - or any other topic - with anyone via email or IM 
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| gmac |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 10:26:17
I shall be a bit controversial here by the looks and say I really have no objection whatsoever to hybrid snakes, so long as when they are marketed they are identified as such, I cant comment on telling the difference by appearance as they havent been produced to date. There will always be people looking for that something different. And as far as I know I don't see any reason for hybrids not being produced in the wild and not in a lab, perhaps geographically for the boas but I cant see any reson for the likes of the corn, ratsnakes and kings breeding in the wild, is always a possibility.
"If its not available in the wild then it shouldnt happen in the lab" from my very limited understanding of the BRB there are 3 traditional morphs (hypo, anery and ghost, so far) of these 3 there is one captive bred morph which is the ghost. Again colour and pattern type BRB's are all line bred to enhance traits and are all readily available it is exactly the same as the corn snake morphs. All breeders and I include myself in this will try to produce the best morphs, colours and patterns we can when breeding snakes it is just part and parcel of snake keeping / breeding.
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| CDN_Blood |
Posted - 18/08/2011 : 22:03:29
quote:
Originally posted by gluttony32
I have to agree with Cliff on the not breeding 2 different subspecies together... its pointless, by diluting the gene pool you are making snakes that are undesireable. I dont know of a single person that would buy a col/braz. hybrid. your obviously not learned enough on genetics since you dont know the difference between hets and traits. Also get urself together, "hybrids are a bad idea"..and in the same sentence you say you enjoy hybrids..what are u talking about. I believe Hybridization is a last resort to generate money in a flooded market by unethical breeders. If it doesnt happen naturally in the wild it should not happen in the lab.
I concur wholeheartedly  |
| gluttony32 |
Posted - 18/08/2011 : 17:48:51
I have to agree with Cliff on the not breeding 2 different subspecies together... its pointless, by diluting the gene pool you are making snakes that are undesireable. I dont know of a single person that would buy a col/braz. hybrid. your obviously not learned enough on genetics since you dont know the difference between hets and traits. Also get urself together, "hybrids are a bad idea"..and in the same sentence you say you enjoy hybrids..what are u talking about. I believe Hybridization is a last resort to generate money in a flooded market by unethical breeders. If it doesnt happen naturally in the wild it should not happen in the lab. |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 31/07/2011 : 16:08:18
Thanks Carter, and yes it is a small world. I just moved here about two years ago now. I am checking out his site now. |
| JKCarter |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 14:10:30
Wow...it is a small world Shinslayer. I just looked at your location and realized you are in Louisville, that's where I'm from originally. Born and raised until about 8 yrs ago when I joined the military and left.
If you're looking for a BRB breeder there locally, look into Will Bird at http://www.ectotherms.net/ He has some beautiful animals and just had his first litter of 2011.
I've communicated with him via email once before and he seemed pleasant enough and was willing to meet me while I was in town so I could pickup.
Hope to see ya around the forum sometime. If you need anything let me know. |
| hiper2009 |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 12:56:30
Hi Congrads on your new job , Will be good to hear if your going to be buying a breeding partner  . |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 00:36:51
Thanks. Where are you located? |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 00:19:56
OK. Offer stands though, any time you need help. Congrats, BTW, on the new job! |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 23:11:59
Haha I would prefer a female brazilian, I can find people who have them for sale. I just started a new job, So no spare cash atm haha. |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 23:05:21
quote:
Originally posted by Shinslayer19
I must admit, that was not the response I was expecting. i was getting ready to back track and apologize and swear not to do it.
I could live with that… (said in humor!) Don't get me wrong, I'm not a sudden fan of the idea...but it's not worth a war over.
quote:
Originally posted by Shinslayer19
The reason I avoided the tracking topic was because I didn't have any retort to it.
There is no good reply to it -- that’s the problem, Devin. No matter how educated and careful you as the breeder may be, and no matter how carefully you preach to any buyers/giftees, one of those babies will eventually wind up with someone who decides to breed it, and from there the genetic clock starts ticking. :-(
quote:
Originally posted by Shinslayer19
I know that to an untrained eye they can be confusing.
Agreed, and that is what I was hinting at when I mentioned “past the 50/50 mark”….
quote:
Originally posted by Shinslayer19
So, I guess, thanks for not being a close minded ass(i hope swearing isn't a no-no on this site if it is sorry) Definite props to you as well.
LOL! Thanks for being educated on the issue, willing to listen, and (most of all) willing to take precautions. I still wish you wouldn’t do it, but I can only educate and delay, not prevent.
By the way, I'd be more than happy to help you locate a female Brazilian or male Columbian if that'll divert your attention. ;-) |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 22:01:32
I must admit, that was not the response I was expecting. i was getting ready to back track and apologize and swear not to do it. I have seen forums tear themselves apart over the topic of hybrids. The reason I avoided the tracking topic was because I didn't have any retort to it. I don't know that much about the different species of rainbows I only know of about 4 that are commonly kept. I know that to an untrained eye they can be confusing. I have some friends that have some guyanan rainbows and their female looks a lot like my columbian female, just a subtle shape difference. Well I will just say rainbows are not the market where I am. I am the only person I know within a few states that keeps them here besides the friends with the guyanans. They don't even really like their guyanans they never hold them.....If they didn't want an arm and a leg for them I would buy them from them. I am sure there is some one outside of my probably limited knowledge of everyones pets here. I just know when I search for my areas top breeders of reptiles, only a couple have brbs and no other rainbows unless they get lucky. It will be a while before she is breeding sized she weighs 482 grams at the moment, and her possible mate weighs 772 grams. So there is plenty of time for me to back out or get a female brb. the columbian kinda fell in my lap and i was glad she turned out to be a female. So, I guess, thanks for not being a close minded ass(i hope swearing isn't a no-no on this site if it is sorry) Definite props to you as well. |
| Snakesitter |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 21:42:23
You are *impressively* well informed, Devin, and make a good case. As I noted above, one of my concerns is the eventual loss of tracking info, as future owners cease to communicate full background on exactly what an animal "is" genetically. Due to these species' quick breeding cycle, high litter sizes, and the difficulty of determining what is exactly what once you get past the 50/50 mark, I feel it's a very legitimate concern, and quite different than dogs. However, I can't stop you, and you sound like you are both aware of and willing to control that issue anyway -- huge props for that.
By no means should you refrain from talking about your project on this site -- it's a free country (portal?), and I'm hardly the boss of it.
As for rainbows not being the market, I think they are better positioned than most realize, if you target it right. But I guess I'll find out soon, huh? ;-)
Best regards, |
| Shinslayer19 |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 21:13:15
It isn't "contaminating the gene pool" I am not releasing them into the wild. They are being kept as pets and being bought for the purpose of having and enjoying owning a snake that they find attractive. If you are worried about some one trying to make a buck off a hybrid brb\columbian, you need to start looking at het. ball pythons and possible hets. People make a killing selling normal ball pythons as hets. Or, what about dogs? Dogs are mutts these days and those are the dogs every day people keep. Pure breds are great for the specific thing they were bred for. Many people who breed purebred dogs say that mixed breed dogs muddy the gene pool. You know why most of them say that? Because an English mastiff that has been crossed with a german shepard, doesn't have hip dysplasia and people will stop paying so much for purebred mastiffs. that kinda pisses the people off who are purebred mastiff breeders. Snake hybrids are not a bad thing, if it was an animal that is endangered or is the kind of animal that bonds with a mate, i agree, hybrids are a bad idea, even in captivity. When it comes to non-endangered species and in a controlled breeding habitat, it isn't a big deal. They get ball python spider morphs by inbreeding the snakes to the point of retardation. i find that much more unnerving than a woma\ball hybrid that doesn't have head wobble, shakes or eating problems like the spider balls do. There are people out there who enjoy hybrids, me being one of them. I will refrain from posting anything about it on this site though because you object.
btw I am not really looking to market them. I dot his for myself. If some one wants a baby as a pet I would be glad to help them out, but rainbows are not the market for snakes unless you are on the ground floor with the new morphs. |
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