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The Dark Side (also graphic photos warning)

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Snakesitter[/i]
[br]Topaz, one of the prettiest females at Living Gems Reptiles (and really one of the prettiest female Brazilians I have ever seen)...
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/Mom.jpg[/img]
�mate to Vlad, also a great pick�
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/Dad.jpg[/img]
...finally dropped her long-awaited litter Monday night, after 115 days of brooding on the heat.  This was a litter I was eagerly awaiting, as I expected some top picks for both customers and holdbacks; I had baby drawers warmed and baby supplies all ready to go.

I came in just as the litter was moving down in Topaz�s body toward her tail -- she looked all skin and bones up top, like a deflated balloon; and all swollen below, like an overplump sausage.  I thus got a rare ring-side seat for what I was hoping would be a great litter.  So that I would not disturb her, I placed a folding screen over the viv front, and peeked discretely through the cracks and side every now and then.

Topaz started with her tail on the front right of the viv, and her head hidden in the back center behind her hide.  She seemed to have a lot of trouble with her first arrival: she struggled for a long time to pass it, her tail above the vent getting more and more swollen.  Finally, near the hour mark, she dropped it -- and it was a slug.  It was followed immediately by a sac that seemed split: one half looked fertilized but undeveloped, and one half looked like a little tiny baby.  As Topaz moved away, I watched that baby, Topaz�s first kid, eagerly through the slits.  There was, however, no sign of movement from the little one.

Mom took another long break now, her tail slowly travelling to the very back of the viv behind some furniture, and she was clearly struggling to pass another blockage.  About another hour later, she succeeded -- another slug -- and this was followed by a tumble of additional slugs and baby sacs, all very quickly.  It was killing me not to check on them, but Mom�s head had come around to the front again, and the pile was in the back.  I chose not to disturb her in what could still be mid-lay.

There was a shorter wait now, and as she moved her tail forward around the left side of the tank, she dropped a tiny little baby sac, followed by a streak of white goo.

Now she turned her head back towards her just-delivered pile in back, moving to it and slowly starting to nose around in it.

In many ways, this was the longest break of all.

She dropped nothing else, but after about ten minutes, directed herself back into her hide, coiling up into a tired circle.

I gave her about 30 more minutes to make sure she was done, and then moved to see the results.
		
I gently moved Mom�s hide box to the floor -- she barely reacted -- and then her water bowl as well.

The baby in the front, the first delivered, was clearly a (very small) stillborn:
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D1.jpg[/img]
Maybe a twin where the other failed to develop?  Note the slug to the left that caused her problems where she first started.

The baby on the left side, the last delivered, was stillborn as well:
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D3.jpg[/img]
Note the white goo.  I�m not sure what it is.

And now, the pile itself�and I now knew why Topaz had paused here so long.  A friend asked me later if a snake could tell when a litter went wrong, and I really do think that she, in whatever sense snakes can �know� anything, figured it out.  In or nearby her pile were another 11 slugs, 6 more piles of white goo, and -- most tragic of all -- 8 more stillborns.

Far view
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2a.jpg[/img]

Closer view, after the slugs were removed
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2b.jpg[/img]

A baby closeup, held in my hand�so sad
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2-B1.jpg[/img]

Another baby closeup, also in my hand
[img]http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2-B2.jpg[/img]

I cleaned up the mess as fast as I could, sanitized, added fresh paper, and moved Mom back to her viv to rest.

All told, the end count for the litter was 10 stillborns, 12 slugs, and 7 white goos.

I feel sooo bad for Topaz right now.  :-(

Thanks to Joe, Ike, Dave, and Jeff for their advice during this process.

:
:
:

So, both as a business and a pet owner, in the end it all comes down to improvement and hope for the future -- what went wrong?

Topaz was a three-and-half-year-old virgin female in excellent condition, who I hand hand-raised since she was a baby, and weighed 2200 grams at the start of the season (I always give them an extra year).  A vet had even looked at her while gravid, and said she seemed fine.  Could it be last-minute first-time Mom issues?

Her mate, Vlad, was also a first-timer, 1400 grams, and estimated at 2.5 years of age.  I did note that courting was awkward for him: he rarely seemed interested in breeding, unlike the older Hills in the viv just above Topaz, who would not *stop* courting his mate Alex.  Could it be the younger Vlad was not fully �into� the babymaking process?

I do *not* think heat was an issue.  Topaz was well within the 82 degree range whenever I checked her, and occasionally above that.  She also made sure to hug the heat directly, rather than insisting she stay in her hide and get whatever heat crept in through its bottom.

I did have to treat Topaz for a minor ailment during her gravid period, and she did stress a bit once about it�but that was weeks before she delivered.  I think that if this were the issue, she would have slugged out then, but who knows?

Her waxy stool was very dry and pellet-like, appearing much like dry rodent food covered in poo sludge.  I�m not sure if this is normal or not.

Finally, she had the awkward delivery.  Could it be that baby sacs ruptured and the little ones, after all that work, drowned during those final moments?

I have no idea if it was any or all of these, or something else entirely.  I do know that Monday night, a lot of little boas with great genetics sadly missed their grand entrance.  Breeding does indeed have a dark side, and all those folks who purchase adult breeders with dreams of quick babies should think about that.

One more litter to go, the great and gravid Alexandrite, who looks much bigger than even Topaz did -- September 18th.

Thank you, as always, for reading.
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Snakesitter	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 16:57:12 Topaz, one of the prettiest females at Living Gems Reptiles (and really one of the prettiest female Brazilians I have ever seen)... �mate to Vlad, also a great pick� ...finally dropped her long-awaited litter Monday night, after 115 days of brooding on the heat. This was a litter I was eagerly awaiting, as I expected some top picks for both customers and holdbacks; I had baby drawers warmed and baby supplies all ready to go. I came in just as the litter was moving down in Topaz�s body toward her tail -- she looked all skin and bones up top, like a deflated balloon; and all swollen below, like an overplump sausage. I thus got a rare ring-side seat for what I was hoping would be a great litter. So that I would not disturb her, I placed a folding screen over the viv front, and peeked discretely through the cracks and side every now and then. Topaz started with her tail on the front right of the viv, and her head hidden in the back center behind her hide. She seemed to have a lot of trouble with her first arrival: she struggled for a long time to pass it, her tail above the vent getting more and more swollen. Finally, near the hour mark, she dropped it -- and it was a slug. It was followed immediately by a sac that seemed split: one half looked fertilized but undeveloped, and one half looked like a little tiny baby. As Topaz moved away, I watched that baby, Topaz�s first kid, eagerly through the slits. There was, however, no sign of movement from the little one. Mom took another long break now, her tail slowly travelling to the very back of the viv behind some furniture, and she was clearly struggling to pass another blockage. About another hour later, she succeeded -- another slug -- and this was followed by a tumble of additional slugs and baby sacs, all very quickly. It was killing me not to check on them, but Mom�s head had come around to the front again, and the pile was in the back. I chose not to disturb her in what could still be mid-lay. There was a shorter wait now, and as she moved her tail forward around the left side of the tank, she dropped a tiny little baby sac, followed by a streak of white goo. Now she turned her head back towards her just-delivered pile in back, moving to it and slowly starting to nose around in it. In many ways, this was the longest break of all. She dropped nothing else, but after about ten minutes, directed herself back into her hide, coiling up into a tired circle. I gave her about 30 more minutes to make sure she was done, and then moved to see the results. I gently moved Mom�s hide box to the floor -- she barely reacted -- and then her water bowl as well. The baby in the front, the first delivered, was clearly a (very small) stillborn: Maybe a twin where the other failed to develop? Note the slug to the left that caused her problems where she first started. The baby on the left side, the last delivered, was stillborn as well: Note the white goo. I�m not sure what it is. And now, the pile itself�and I now knew why Topaz had paused here so long. A friend asked me later if a snake could tell when a litter went wrong, and I really do think that she, in whatever sense snakes can �know� anything, figured it out. In or nearby her pile were another 11 slugs, 6 more piles of white goo, and -- most tragic of all -- 8 more stillborns. Far view Closer view, after the slugs were removed A baby closeup, held in my hand�so sad Another baby closeup, also in my hand I cleaned up the mess as fast as I could, sanitized, added fresh paper, and moved Mom back to her viv to rest. All told, the end count for the litter was 10 stillborns, 12 slugs, and 7 white goos. I feel sooo bad for Topaz right now. :-( Thanks to Joe, Ike, Dave, and Jeff for their advice during this process. : : : So, both as a business and a pet owner, in the end it all comes down to improvement and hope for the future -- what went wrong? Topaz was a three-and-half-year-old virgin female in excellent condition, who I hand hand-raised since she was a baby, and weighed 2200 grams at the start of the season (I always give them an extra year). A vet had even looked at her while gravid, and said she seemed fine. Could it be last-minute first-time Mom issues? Her mate, Vlad, was also a first-timer, 1400 grams, and estimated at 2.5 years of age. I did note that courting was awkward for him: he rarely seemed interested in breeding, unlike the older Hills in the viv just above Topaz, who would not stop courting his mate Alex. Could it be the younger Vlad was not fully �into� the babymaking process? I do not think heat was an issue. Topaz was well within the 82 degree range whenever I checked her, and occasionally above that. She also made sure to hug the heat directly, rather than insisting she stay in her hide and get whatever heat crept in through its bottom. I did have to treat Topaz for a minor ailment during her gravid period, and she did stress a bit once about it�but that was weeks before she delivered. I think that if this were the issue, she would have slugged out then, but who knows? Her waxy stool was very dry and pellet-like, appearing much like dry rodent food covered in poo sludge. I�m not sure if this is normal or not. Finally, she had the awkward delivery. Could it be that baby sacs ruptured and the little ones, after all that work, drowned during those final moments? I have no idea if it was any or all of these, or something else entirely. I do know that Monday night, a lot of little boas with great genetics sadly missed their grand entrance. Breeding does indeed have a dark side, and all those folks who purchase adult breeders with dreams of quick babies should think about that. One more litter to go, the great and gravid Alexandrite, who looks much bigger than even Topaz did -- September 18th. Thank you, as always, for reading.
15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Snakesitter	Posted - 20/09/2011 : 18:19:14 Thanks Mamma. This one went up just as the old photo site went out of business, so a lot of people told me they never saw the picts.
Mamma	Posted - 20/09/2011 : 09:16:31 so sorry xxx
Snakesitter	Posted - 20/09/2011 : 04:29:58 Here are the restored photos, as hosted on a new site. I tried to edit the post above, but it would not let me.... Topaz (Mom) Vlad (Dad) First Drop Last Drop Pile #1 Pile #2 Baby #1 Baby #2
Snakesitter	Posted - 02/09/2011 : 21:34:38 quote: Originally posted by gmacSnakesitter hope you dont mind. Not at all -- thank you! quote: Originally posted by ptmbradley Snakesitter I'm so sorry about poor Topaz and her litter. Hope she recovers to produce some lovely babies in the future. :) Thanks Peter -- I hope so, too! quote: Originally posted by CDN_Blood I can't say that I've seen that goo before... The white goo, I am told, is unabsorbed yolk, which means some of the babies may not have been fully developed. quote: Originally posted by newbie Cliff I'm so sorry, I can't imagine how devastating this is for both you and Topaz hope you're ok and Topaz recovers from this ok x Topaz, ironically, seems more oblivious than I. Ah, to operate only on instinct! Fingers way crossed for the future. Thank you all,
newbie	Posted - 01/09/2011 : 19:44:36 Cliff I'm so sorry, I can't imagine how devastating this is for both you and Topaz hope you're ok and Topaz recovers from this ok x
CDN_Blood	Posted - 01/09/2011 : 02:42:57 I can't say that I've seen that goo before <scratches head and chin at same time - he's that perplexed>...
ptmbradley	Posted - 01/09/2011 : 01:57:36 Thanks for posting the pics Gmac coz it wasn't working for me either. Snakesitter I'm so sorry about poor Topaz and her litter. Hope she recovers to produce some lovely babies in the future. :)
gmac	Posted - 01/09/2011 : 01:04:18 Im at a loss as to why they dont work for everyone. Photos in order as above, click to enlarge Snakesitter hope you dont mind.
Snakesitter	Posted - 01/09/2011 : 00:31:58 Darn good question. Someone on another form had the exact same issue. But they all work fine for me, have always worked from that hosting site, and seem to work for some readers/forums, so I'm at a loss to say. Oscar, drop me an e-mail reminder if you like and I'll send you them direct.
oakleyman18	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 23:28:24 I'm afraid I can't see any of those images either from the direct links.. Sorry guys Why would they not be displaying?
Snakesitter	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 22:06:12 Thanks Graeme, I appreciate the assist. Here is the eight and final one: http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D3.jpg
gmac	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 21:51:36 Links to photos for those that cant see them. http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/Mom.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/Dad.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D1.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2a.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2b.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2-B1.jpg http://premium1.uploadit.org/ViaWea/BRBBreeding2011/TV-D2-B2.jpg
Snakesitter	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 20:36:34 Thanks Todd. I'm not a big believer in breeding animals year after year either; generally, the most I will ever do is two years on one year off -- IF the female not only gets back up to weight, but is also healthy in appearance and behavior. It's a tough bar to meet, set very deliberately. In Topaz's case, I'm additionally going to have a vet look at her, just to make sure she has recovered fine.
CDN_Blood	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 20:17:40 Ouch! Sounds like the poor girl had a rough time of it I hope she gets the next year off from any breeding, if not the next two. That would help stabilize her a bit after such an ordeal. Btw, I can't see any images either, so I can't tell if there's anything going on that I may recognize...
gmac	Posted - 31/08/2011 : 19:45:05 meant to add, can see the photos now.

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