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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
 Posted - 19/08/2011 : 13:30:37
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Before we start this one, please remember each have our own opinions on this subject so please keep responses civil, as this has the potential to be a good discussion / debate.
Personally I really have no objection whatsoever to hybrid snakes, so long as when they are marketed they are identified as such, I cant comment on telling the difference by appearance as they havent been produced to date. There will always be people looking for that something different. And as far as I know I don't see any reason for hybrids not being produced in the wild and not in a lab, perhaps geographically for the boas but I cant see any reson for the likes of the corn, ratsnakes and kings breeding in the wild, is always a possibility.
"If its not available in the wild then it shouldnt happen in the lab" from my very limited understanding of the BRB there are 3 traditional morphs (hypo, anery and ghost, so far) of these 3 there is one captive bred morph which is the ghost. Again colour and pattern type BRB's are all line bred to enhance traits and are all readily available, it is exactly the same as the corn snake morphs. All breeders and I include myself in this will try to produce the best morphs, colours and patterns we can when breeding snakes it is just part and parcel of snake keeping / breeding.
My only problem is not with the hybrid / integrade animals but the owners who then try and pass them off as what they are not, as mentioned above I cannot comment on the appearance of the BRB/CRB as it hasnt been produced yet, however in the corn world the creamsicle (amel corn x great plains rat) has the appearance of a corn and has and will continue to be passed down as a corn. It is these people that require a level of education.
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GMac
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 13:31:53
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Originally Posted by CDN Blood hope you dont mind me copying this across?
quote:
Originally posted by gmac
All breeders and I include myself in this will try to produce the best morphs, colours and patterns we can when breeding snakes it is just part and parcel of snake keeping / breeding.
Now see, this is what forums are all about - to get people thinking, talking and sharing ideas from which we can all learn 
I actually feel totally opposite about keeping snakes. I don't breed them because there aren't enough serious keepers in my area that I feel would commit to the animals, but if I did at some point decide to breed a few, I'd make every effort to maintain the original species, and I think where Epicrates is concerned, there is just no way I'd want to dilute the gene pools. I do have a Columbian subspecies and an Argentine ssp. but would never let them mate. I find the two distinct animals much too beautiful as they are, and would not want to distract from their individual beauty by mixing them.
I'm the same with my Bloods - I have a female Borneo Blood and 2 male Malaysian Bloods, but would never let them get busy with one another because again, they're simply too beautiful to allow the gene pool to get muddy and detract from either subspecies natural beauty, not to mention how frowned-upon it is mix them in Blood Python circles. I'd be ostracized by my Blood buddies, and I'd deserve it.
I feel it's my duty as a responsible keeper to ensure preservation of the natural lineage.
To add a touch of confusion, I do have a Morelia intergrade in the house. As much as I like the snake, I did not seek her-out or pay for her - I would never purposely acquire or pay for an intergrade or a even worse, a hybrid. Someone asked me to take-in this animal after she was left behind by an owner who didn't want her anymore. She's a stunning snake, but again, I'd never let her breed because she is an intergrade.
The intergrade vs. hybrid thing is something we should perhaps mention here as we are in fact debating an intergrade and not a hybrid. Intergrades are when 2 subspecies of the same family are mixed, and a hybrid is when 2 snakes of separate families are mixed. As this debate is about a Brazilian being mixed with a Columbian, any resulting offspring would be Epicrates cenchria intergrades, just for the record.
I strongly urge anyone not to create intergrades or hybrids, I (or anyone I know) would never even consider purchasing one and I personally frown on the idea of supporting such breeding projects, but it's not like I can stop someone from doing it, and it's not like we all share the same values. As long as there are those like myself out there who believe in preserving the naturally occurring species & subspecies to balance those who think it's okay to pollute the gene pools, all I can do is hope it does balance itself out in the end.
If you've ever visited my website, you've noticed that I'm all about ethics and responsibility. After being in the game for 24 years, seeing some of the things I've seen and seeing how the hobby has changed to radically over the past few years, I seem to be a bit of a dinosaur with my idea that it's all about ethics, but I'll stand-by my ethics to my last breath, thank you, lol.
This is a hot topic in my books and I feel very strongly about it, so please excuse me if I seem to be ranting a bit. I'd be happy to debate this - or any other topic - with anyone via email or IM 
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GMac
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 13:53:22
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quote:
Originally posted by CDN Blood
To add a touch of confusion, I do have a Morelia intergrade in the house. As much as I like the snake, I did not seek her-out or pay for her - I would never purposely acquire or pay for an intergrade or a even worse, a hybrid. Someone asked me to take-in this animal after she was left behind by an owner who didn't want her anymore. She's a stunning snake, but again, I'd never let her breed because she is an intergrade.
This is a hot topic in my books and I feel very strongly about it, so please excuse me if I seem to be ranting a bit. I'd be happy to debate this - or any other topic - with anyone via email or IM
WE are in the same position of having a hybrid in our collection, a creamsicle, while im not against owning one I will not breed from this lad. I dont think there is much of a call for hybrids in our area so this lad is pet only (actually my youngest daughters pet).
One of the biggest issues i see with Hybrids for example jungle corns is their keeping, on what side of the parentage do you base the keeping, King snakes require a warmer environment than a corn so what temps do you go with.
Hybrids/integrades are not for me however people will try, its human nature, to produce these animals and so long as they dont try and pass them off as something they are not, im relatively at ease with it.
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GMac
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CDN_Blood
Rainbow oddball
Canada
489 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 15:09:00
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I don't mind that my text was transferred here whatsoever, it helps generate debate. I'm all a twitter, this will be a great thread and get people thinking
I think the most ridiculous (and I don't use that word lightly) example of hybrids are SuperBalls, which are Blood Python x Royal Python. The logic for my distaste of such a thing is that the 2 animals are so radically different from one another and have hugely different husbandry requirements. It's absolutely unnatural. I'm not a religious type, but if I were I'd go so far as to call it an unholy union. It's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned.
It's one thing if both animals in question have territories that overlap as is the case with Morelia intergrades, but things like SuperBalls are just a horrible endeavour.
Another example of one of the hybrids I totally disagree with are BatEaters. Here you're crossing 2 of the biggest snakes known, both with the potential to easily take a full-grown man down with ease, and mixing their genes. While Burmese are generally very placid animals and Retics are generally high-strung, you end-up with an often unpredictable animal that will attain truly giant proportions. How clever is that?!
Now, where Rainbow Boas are concerned, while it's still all in the same family, I just wouldn't do it, personally. I think we'd find that ghosts, anery and hypos are indeed naturally occurring mutations if we could penetrate deep enough into their natural territories and study them for any length of time, but I doubt we'd find many as those mutations make them more visible to predators and the chances of finding any that have reached maturity in their natural environment are probably quite slim. I could well be wrong, I just think the chances of those morphs being natural are higher than we may think.
I'm not terribly worried about RB intergrades, I just wouldn't do it myself or recommend it to anyone. I don't see the base subspecies being lost among them - they're too special on their own to be taken over by intergrades.
One other thing that concerns me about hybrids, intergrades or certain morphs are health issues. Neurological disorders are absolutely rampant among some animals such as Jaguar Carpets and Royal Pythons. Consider 'head wobble' in both - I have seen a local Jaguar Carpet Python that has this so bad that she literally crawls upside down, and it's not a pretty thing to watch, I'll tell you that.
On the note of Royal Python morphs, over and over again the gene pools are getting so diluted to produce certain colours and/or patterns that the original traits of the animals are being bred-out. Anyone familiar with Royal Python morphs has likely noticed that the darker the morph, the more aggressive the animal, and that's a shame for those of us who appreciate the placid, non-aggressive characteristics of Royals which used to be considered inherent in the animal. That is out the window and even though those breeding them know it, they continue to isolate the genes that produce the darker morphs and get further and further away from the sweet little snakes we know and love. It's a shame...a real shame.
Don't forget, these are just my opinions, which means their neither correct or incorrect, so readers really need to take them with a grain barrel of salt 
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TODD
25 Years of Commitment and Responsibility in Private Herpetoculture |
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 17:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by CDN_Blood
I think the most ridiculous (and I don't use that word lightly) example of hybrids are SuperBalls, which are Blood Python x Royal Python. The logic for my distaste of such a thing is that the 2 animals are so radically different from one another and have hugely different husbandry requirements. It's absolutely unnatural. I'm not a religious type, but if I were I'd go so far as to call it an unholy union. It's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned.
It's one thing if both animals in question have territories that overlap as is the case with Morelia intergrades, but things like SuperBalls are just a horrible endeavour.
Now, where Rainbow Boas are concerned, while it's still all in the same family, I just wouldn't do it, personally. I think we'd find that ghosts, anery and hypos are indeed naturally occurring mutations if we could penetrate deep enough into their natural territories and study them for any length of time, but I doubt we'd find many as those mutations make them more visible to predators and the chances of finding any that have reached maturity in their natural environment are probably quite slim. I could well be wrong, I just think the chances of those morphs being natural are higher than we may think.
I'm not terribly worried about RB intergrades, I just wouldn't do it myself or recommend it to anyone. I don't see the base subspecies being lost among them - they're too special on their own to be taken over by intergrades.
a few good points, the one that really confuses me is the newest monstrosity (my term for it) is the BalTic, while it is one thing pairing similar sized and shape snakes I really see no point whatsoever in pairing a Ball python with a psychotic reticulated python. you are taking what is generally a docile and rather, and for fear of being banished from the royal python, boring species and pairing it with a not so docile species. Who knows what the animal is like in the end it is very Jeckyl and Hide.
Also agree the BRB base will always be there.
and for the royal lovers out there that may be offended by my description of them in my defense I have 3 normals  |
GMac
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 17:57:20
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I am 100% in the against-intergrades camp. Probably the biggest reason for my stance is honest and accurate reporting.
Graeme, let's pretend you breed a Brazilian and a Caatingan, making a litter of 15 pretty little babies. You then sell these little bundles of joy, making sure to inform each and every buyer both upfront and in writing that these are Brazilian-Caatingan intergrades, not purebreds. Three years later, one or more of these customers breed their intergrade to another rainbow, probably a Brazilian. Can you guarantee that each of those offspring will be honestly and accurately represented as a 75% Brazilian-25% Caatingan rather than a generic "Brazilian"? If not, your original innocent intergrafe experiment has just diluted the overall gene pool, as now snakes with 25% non-Brazilian genes are polluting the purebred Brazilian gene pool.
While I realize this is just an example, I would bet a lot of money that this is exactly how it would play out. Thus, I am against it.
Respectfully, |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 18:00:03
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> Also agree the BRB base will always be there
I'm not so sure on this one. I think that once the door opens to intergrades, that clock will start ticking. |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
Edited by - Snakesitter on 22/08/2011 20:35:39 |
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 18:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Snakesitter
I am 100% in the against-intergrades camp. Probably the biggest reason for my stance is honest and accurate reporting.
Graeme, let's pretend you breed a Brazilian and a Caatingan, making a litter of 15 pretty little babies. You then sell these little bundles of joy, making sure to inform each and every buyer both upfront and in writing that these are Brazilian-Caatingan intergrades, not purebreds. Three years later, one or more of these customers breed their intergrade to another rainbow, probably a Brazilian. Can you guarantee that each of those offspring will be honestly and accurately represented as a 75% Brazilian-25% Caatingan rather than a generic "Brazilian"? If not, your original innocent intergrafe experiment has just diluted the overall gene pool, as now snakes with 25% non-Brazilian genes are polluting the purebred Brazilian gene pool.
While I realize this is just an example, I would bet a lot of money that this is exactly how it would play out. Thus, I am against it.
Respectfully,
the top paragraph now this is my biggest worry in all honesty not so much the breeding.
There are numerous occasions where the mods on our sister site have to remind people on TCS that the snakes in the classified are hybrids.
the next worry would be new hobbyists that dont understand or aware of pacts of breeding the hybrid / integrade.
I apologise for going on about cornsnakes but I am aware of the issues regarding them more that BRB. Where I do see a problem with integrades in BRB that is not there for corns, is the numbers of them. There is a larger number of corns around than BRB so I agree there is a larger potential problem with integrade rainbow boas.
The only way around this is to have a register of BRB breeders similar to corns now, where you can register each animal its parents and offspring etc. Traceability will have to be introduced at some stage. |
GMac
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 19:46:02
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| I agree that would be a potential solution. However, the reptile industry, by its very nature, tends to fly under the radar, and many breeders -- especially the small home hobbyists, or those who own low-grade pairs they breed only as a side-line for extra cash -- would not register. (Even if it were required by the industry and/or law, I suspect that would be true.) Thus, the problem would persist.... |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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CDN_Blood
Rainbow oddball
Canada
489 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2011 : 21:15:00
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I don't see many people using a Register type idea. I think the vast majority of today's keepers are strictly in the hobby to fill their pockets and don't really give a damn about the snakes. It's sad to say, but that's certainly the case over here, and they'll do and/or say anything to get that cash in their hand  |
TODD
25 Years of Commitment and Responsibility in Private Herpetoculture |
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gluttony32
New Member
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 08:57:39
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hypotheticaly If you have a pitbull and his bloodline is championship breed...or maybe he is just a good looking dog, intelligent and loyal, do u breed him to a mutt or a similar dog? I have 2 and would never breed them to anything less than what they are, why should it be any different for snakes. they result might look cool but its not a full blood. has anyone seen a pic of a rainaconda? its a supposed hybrid of Eunectes murinus/epicrates cerenchia? cool looking..sort of... but why would anyone breed it? money? its almost as if people just want to be the first to breed something just to say they did...I do not approve of hybridization in anyway shape or form, thats not to say that i would not rescue, foster or adopt one, but I would never ever pay for one.
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gluttony32
New Member
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 09:11:31
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| Also as far as rainbows go, they are all beautiful in their own right, from the peruvian, the brazilian and the catinga and any others that i missed, Imho its ok to breed them for traits or hets such as anery, bullseyes, hypos, blushes as long as it doesnt involve interbreeding between different localities. brazilians with brazilians and colombians with colombians...its that easy. |
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 09:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by gluttony32
its almost as if people just want to be the first to breed something just to say they did....
Agree with this totally. |
GMac
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2011 : 20:36:40
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| Great discussion, everyone! |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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Shinslayer19
New Member
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 27/08/2011 : 23:39:57
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| So just out of curiosity why did this get moved? |
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gmac
Grumpy Scots Admin
United Kingdom
710 Posts |
Posted - 28/08/2011 : 00:16:16
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| wasnt moved is a new thread. |
GMac
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Integrades / Hybrid discussion
