| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
 Posted - 18/10/2009 : 07:00:09
|
Help!
I have a baby born in August. She had one meal with the breeder, and then was sent to me. Since arriving, I haven't been able to get her to eat once. The other thread seems to have run its course, so I hope to get more assistance here. I tried e-mailing the breeder, but all I got told was that he just dangles the rodent and wiggles it as if it's alive. (And then he told me not to let her go to long without eating because that is unhealthy.)
The baby is in 90% humidity and a temperature range of 75 (cool side - this is the side she prefers) to 80 (warm side - she only occasionally can be found on this side, which baffles me). She has two hides, one for each side. I'm trying to feed her pups that have been warmed in hot water.
Here's a run down of what I've tried:
-no handling
-make the rodent dance
-feed her in the dark
-feed her at night
-feed her in the wee hours of the morning
-feed her in the hide she's currently in, left overnight
-feed her in a separate container, left for several hours
-soak the rodent in chicken stock before feeding
-brain the rodent
-tap the rodent into the back of her head
Any more ideas? |
|
|
gingerpony
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
1442 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2009 : 21:48:26
|
heya and welcome 
sorry to hear you're having problems
TBH i'm not impressed with a breeder that will let a youngster go having only taken one feed but that's just my opinion.......
having had to resort to live feeding with one of my Dumerils it gave me a chance to study how a real live mouse moves so i could replicate it with a frozen/thawed rat weaner now. it's kinda difficult to describe but they stay pretty still but they're still twitching, and move in short bursts about an inch at a time, sit and quiver for a while and move another inch, and so on. if i can replicate this well my Dum will now take F/T food but if the wiggling is too aggressive it just scares him and puts him off.
sorry, it's difficult to explain but i'll try to video it and put it on here or utube some time
are you warming the rat pup directly in the water ie. making it wet? as that migt put her off eating it. and, just curious, who advised you to tap the back of her head with the prey item? it's pretty scary for a small snake to be 'attacked' by it's meal!!
how big is the enclosure and how big is the snake?
is there plenty of decor to provide cover for her?
i'm not that familiar specifically with rainbow boas but if you check the caresheet does the warm end need to be a little warmer?
how are you heating the enclosure and how is the heat controlled?
are the hides indentical?
does any natural or artificial light shine into either hide at any time of day?
sorry for the huge list of questions but often a reason for a poor feeding response is down to stress caused by their set-up, i'm just trying to find out if there's an easily fixable cause... |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder hypo boas, ratsnakes, cornsnakes, Day geckos
LOCATION: Leeds/York area
 |
Edited by - gingerpony on 18/10/2009 21:51:24 |
 |
|
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2009 : 22:20:38
|
Thanks for the reply.
-I warm it in a bag, so it is usually dry when I take it out. (One time the bag leaked.)
-Tap the back of the head to cause a strike reaction was suggested on the other reluctant feeder thread on this forum.
-The enclosure is 10 gallons, and the snake is about 20 inches long (about as long as the long side of the enclosure).
-I haven't put any decor in aside from her hides (and her bedding and water, if that counts); maybe this is a problem.
-Caresheets seem to differ, but I'm going by the breeder's caresheet. He recommends 75-83 degrees, and adds that over 85 can be fatal. He also says that babies should be around 77 degrees.
-I'm heating the enclosure with a Zoo Med heat mat. It's stuck to the side of one of the short ends of the enclosure. The heat is controlled with separate Zoo Med thermostat set on medium most of the time.
-The hides are identical.
-Both hides have very small holes for entry, so any light that gets in doesn't get very far back.
Her eyes are clouding up, so I think she's going to shed soon -- I imagine feeding her would be next to impossible at just this moment. |
|
|
|
gingerpony
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
1442 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2009 : 07:39:28
|
thanks for all the info
you're right in that she's unlikely to be interested in food while shedding so a bit of time-out from trying to feed would be good.
i'll look up who told you to tap the back of her head........i REALLY wouldn't advise you do this though as all it will do is scare her!
the warm end seems a little cool personally, possibly why she's often found at the cool end - cos there's not much difference between the temps at either end. and potentially a reason why she won't feed - as she know the heat isn't right for her to digest it. if the hides are ideantical there shouldn't be much of a reason to prefer one oven the other apart from privacy. i'm not sure why people put the heatmat on the side of the enclosure either.......that set-up is for lizards rather than snakes. snakes benefit so much more from the heat being underneath and, for heavier-bodied snakes above. you say the stat is set on 'medium' but ideally ignore the dial on the stat and set it to the thermometer inside the enclosure.
a bit more 'cover' for her might help her feel more secure in her environment and less exposed if she wants to move from hide tohide or have a drink. i'm not sure about the extent this problem affects rainbow boas but it's certainly a factor with other snake species, and i have a fair bit of experiance with non-feeders..... |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder hypo boas, ratsnakes, cornsnakes, Day geckos
LOCATION: Leeds/York area
|
|
|
|
gingerpony
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
1442 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2009 : 07:41:29
|
had a quick look....when you posted your previous thread re. non-feeding was it under a different username?
and how long has it been since she last ate at the breeder? |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder hypo boas, ratsnakes, cornsnakes, Day geckos
LOCATION: Leeds/York area
|
|
|
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2009 : 04:44:05
|
The other thread wasn't me -- I just read it for reference when I started having troubles of my own. I started this thread because old topic was old, and I wanted to make sure my experience with the problem got addressed pretty quickly.
I don't know when the breeder fed her. Her card says that she was born on 8/18 and weighed 27 grams. 8/19, 8/26, 8/30, and 9/8 are all marked down on the card, but I can't make out his scribbles for those dates. I'm pretty sure he fed her at least once, because judging by his e-mails to me, he wanted to make sure that she ate and eliminated before he sent her. I got her on 9/17.
I turned the thermostat up to high (there are no numbers on the dial), which has raised the temperature a couple of degrees on both ends.
I put the heat mat on the side because the instructions warned about the potential of burns on snakes that burrowed into the substrate over the pad area.
I'll get some additional cover as soon as possible.
What signs should I watch for to know if she starts going downhill so I can take her to a vet in time if she starts deteriorating? (I cared for a ball python for a while, but had no troubles. Other than that, I've only had birds. This all adds up to mean that I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for with a troublesome snake, and I want to be certain that I know so I can take action.)
Also, I take back my comment about shedding. I risked disturbing her by taking her out for a closer look, and her eyes didn't appear cloudy after all. Apparently I'm seeing things. Or, maybe the humidity fogs things up a bit. She is still quite active and -seems- healthy (and insistent on climbing up -- even if it means back up your arm instead of back down into the cage), but I don't know how well snakes hide these things. |
|
|
|
Chaoslillith
Snake mite
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2009 : 16:39:00
|
I would try live food, it may trigger her prey drive. I know live is not the safest way to feed technically but there is a fairly safe way to do it. Get a live mouse and put it in a brown paper bag. Put the mouse in the bag in the cage. My red tail would smell the rat immediately and sit and wait for it to emerge from the bag and strike as soon as the rat's front 1/2 of it's body emerged. I stopped feeding live because I messed up and put the rat in when she wasn't in strike position so she got a scratch. This might interest the baby more than a frozen mouse.
If you put the bag in there and she shows no real interest in it after the mouse is out and wondering, take the mouse out so it cannot hurt her.
Good luck |
Edited by - Chaoslillith on 20/10/2009 16:41:05 |
|
|
|
gingerpony
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
1442 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2009 : 21:28:26
|
personally i'd get her enclosure sorted first before resorting to live. i'm not against live feeding and had to with one of my Dumerils but he regularly takes defrost now. his extreme circumstances were eating 4 times in the whole YEAR that his previous owner had him..........he sounded good in the ad but when i saw him he wasn't at all what i was looking for, he was about 3ft and 3kgs too small but he was in such a state i felt i had to rescue him!!
ignore what the instructions have said regarding positioning the heatmat, put it under the viv if it's a glass or plastic one, or inside if it's a wooden viv. the substrate will need to be thinner over the mat to get the temps up as a thick layer of substrate will insulate the heat away from the snake. place the thermometer and stat probes on top of the substrate (i have mine rubber banded together) and set the temp to the reading on the thermometer. a digital thermometer is best, the dial ones are only worth binning IMO lol
more cover could be as simple as using shredded paper (but this may get soggy with the humidity) or fake plants and leaves. filling in any 'open' areas will make her feel more secure and will help her feeding response, as will getting the temperatures right.
something else i forgot to mention is the photoperiod......is she getting at least 12-14 hours of light a day? as a youngster she's too small to brumate, but factors that trigger brumation are low temps and shorter days/daylight hours. thinking it's time for winter/brumation could be another cause. i'm leaving a light on in my room where the vivs are for an extra 4 hours a day as i want to keep mine feeding and not thinking about winter quite yet.
with regards to her shedding, snakes usually go blue and their eyes cloud over, then their eyes clear again and they shed within about a week. although their eyes appear to clear their vision is still impaired so it's still not advisable to handle her during this period. some snakes will feed whilst in blue/shedding but some won't...... basically it's down to the snake's preference.
and finally with regards to her condition the best guide is to monitor her weight regularly and try not to panic unless she loses any. during brumation when snakes fast they usually maintain their weight and can even gain it!! |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder hypo boas, ratsnakes, cornsnakes, Day geckos
LOCATION: Leeds/York area
|
|
|
|
Kazerella
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
721 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2009 : 10:02:41
|
I agree that you should put more cover in. They are quite timid snakes, so fill with as much plants and branches etc as you can.
What weight is she now? Do you know how much she's lost? |
  |
|
|
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2009 : 18:30:04
|
I've moved the heat pad underneath the tank as suggested (which kicked the humidity from 90% to 99%!) My thermometer is digital with a probe, but my hydrometer is a dial -- I couldn't find any digital hydrometers at the local stores. I figured the hydrometer doesn't have to be quite as precise, though, so I could probably get away with that.
She did shed, and has gone back to being active and exploratory at night, so I tried to feed her again. No dice, though. She flicked her tongue a bit and then slithered in another direction.
We do live in an older house with a lot of tree cover, so it stays pretty dim inside without plenty of artificial lighting. I think I'll make it a practice to keep the lights on in the room she is in for 12+ hours in case that helps.
I haven't added more cover yet, but that is next on my list.
I don't know how much weight she has lost because I don't have a scale -- I assume that is next on my list as well? :) |
Edited by - Crow on 23/10/2009 18:31:33 |
|
|
|
Chaoslillith
Snake mite
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 24/10/2009 : 03:07:03
|
Try this:
Since you have the temp and humidity better see if this helps.
If you are using frozen, thaw them out in really hot water in ziplock bags until they are very pliable, then microwave them for about 10-15 seconds to make them nice and hot. They will smell very strong and be at a higher temperature so the heat and the smell may attract her.
I would try live as well if the above does not work.
You could also put the food source nice hot and smelly in the tank and leave her alone for about 10 minutes. She may be too shy to eat in front of you.
|
|
|
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2009 : 01:54:33
|
I followed your suggestions, Chaoslillith. The rodent did indeed smell VERY strong, but Cecilia still only gave me the usual couple flicks of the tongue before turning and slithering away. I decided to leave it in her enclosure, turned off the lights, and headed to bed (it was about midnight.) Next morning, the rodent was still there. :(
After calling a bunch of places in the area, I finally found someone who sells live feeder mice. I headed over there to pick up a mouse and some fake vegetation. Upon arrival, I double-checked my pockets and realized that when I'd changed my jeans I'd forgotten to transfer my debit card over to the new pair. Go me! So, I headed home (which is a 30 minute drive). I figure I'll try again tomorrow. |
|
|
|
Chaoslillith
Snake mite
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2009 : 03:16:22
|
Talk about a stubborn snake!! Ever hear that Paul Simon song "Cecilia" Lyrics go "Cecilia, you're breaking my heart, you're shaking my confidence daily" fits your snake. Maybe change her name? LOL Just kidding.
If the live mice don't get her interest I am not sure what to tell you. You can force feed a snake, I would check with a vet though on the proper way to do it. My red tail Elvira is on food in an instant. I can tell when it is getting close to her feeding day without a calendar, she becomes much more active and seems to look at me in a sort of "Waitress? Human? I need a rat or two please." I hope you get her to eat though.
I hope the live feeding gets her out of it. If she responds to the live I would use them for a few feedings, the go one size smaller then what you are feeding and feed a live followed by a thawed dead about 1/2 hour later or so. Elvira, my snake, eats two frozen at a sitting. I give her one, give her about an hour to digest that one and give her another.
That way you can get your snake onto frozen. Some snakes will only take live at first.
Good luck. |
|
|
|
Kazerella
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
721 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2009 : 19:50:03
|
Be warned though if you do feed her live she might be hard to switch back to frozen/thawed.
My BRB went ages without eating too, but I found that she needs total darkness and total quiet to eat. I put her in a small tub so she cannot ignore the mouse and leave her for a good 45 minutes in dark and silence. It's usually gone by the time I get back.  |
|
|
|
|
Chaoslillith
Snake mite
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2009 : 23:34:00
|
| Good idea Kaz. Elvira is my first snake and she is so easy that I forget that some snakes can be a pain to get to eat. Silly snakes. |
|
|
|
Crow
Snake mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2009 : 21:03:19
|
Good(ish) news! I got a live hopper mouse yesterday, and she grabbed it in seconds. (Fate has decreed that I must always forget something, so this time I forgot to pick up fake vines for extra cover when I was at the store. >.< My husband thinks I'm going to absent-mindedly burn down the house someday.)
Anyway, I'm so pleased that she's finally eaten something, even with the bit of a sour note that I ended up resorting to live.
And, LOL at the Cecilia song comment, Chaoslillith. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Not eating -- more assistance!
