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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
 Posted - 29/01/2011 : 12:04:44
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i had a really awful day yesterday. after little Prisma Pequeno's "strange" behaviour morphed into something altogether more shocking, i rushed him to the vets to discover he has inclusion body disease. most of you probably know what that is and what it involves.
Im really upset and trying to mix caring for Prisma with the safety of my other snakes. I am going to have to have them all screened for the disease. I dont know what ill do if any of the rest come back positive. Some might laugh if they saw how distraught i am about my baby boa but i know noone on here will. Poor Prisma (whose name means "little prism") is only about 5-6 months old and is too weak to get around his viv and far to weak to eat. i wont go into detail so as not to distress any of you but those of you who have dealt with it or heard of it will no what im going through and how on monday im going to have to make the hardest decision i will ever have to make.
I am trying to be practical about it so i have checked my other snakes (including holding Serendipity for the first time) for initial symptoms and at the moment all seems okay...i hope. I have moved prismas viv into another room and, as always, am washing my hands with alcohol gel between touching each snake. If anyone HAS had to deal with IBD in their collection before and has any advise on extra measures and could tell me how its actually spread (apart from mites and housing snakes together) i would really apreciate it (eg is it airbourne or is it body fluid based etc etc.)
I will show Prisma all the love I can until its time.
ps, sorry to be a downer, just wanted someone to talk to who undestands... |
R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2011 : 19:55:08
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I'm *sooo* sorry to hear the bad news, Benji. However, I have only praise for your being so forthright about the issue, your excellent care for him, and your being so careful to check the others too. Bravely done!
I've never had -- or even seen -- a case of IBD, but would offer two suggestions just on general principle.
One, *absolutely* continue to sanitize between his and other cages. Just to be extra safe, I would do that in between every other cage as well (not just his), just until this sorts out. (You will also want to bleach-sterlize tools used in common, such as feeding tongs.)
Two, make sure to contact the source you got Prisma from, and warn them. If it came from the breeder/store, they need to know and take their own action(s), both so that they can warn their other customers, and to prevent future owners from suffering the same misfortune.
Again, huge praise for posting this publicly in a difficult time. My fingers are crossed for you.
Cliff Earle |
Edited by - Snakesitter on 02/02/2011 18:34:23 |
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hiper2009
Banned
United Kingdom
845 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 16:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Snakesitter
I'm *sooo* sorry to hear the bad news, Benji. However, I have only praise for your being so forthright about the issue, your excellent care for him, and your being so careful to check the others too. Bravely done!
I've never had -- or even seen -- a case of IBD, but would offer two suggestions just on general pinciple.
One, *absolutely* continue to sanitize between his and other cages. Just to be extra safe, I would do that in between every other cage as well (not just his), just until this sorts out. (You will also want to bleach-sterlize tools used in common, such as feeding tongs.)
Two, make sure to contact the source you got Prisma from, and warn them. If it came from the breeder/store, they need to know and take their own action(s), both so that they can warn their other customers, and to prevent future owners from suffering the same misfortune.
Again, huge praise for posting this publicly in a difficult time. My fingers are crossed for you.
Cliff Earle
Great post MR Earle.  |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 18:36:00
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| Thanks Ash. Benji, still crossing my fingers for you. |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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hiper2009
Banned
United Kingdom
845 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 13:02:02
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| Do you know if a brb could catch that IBD ? I would hate to go through what Benji54 went through that would crush my heart and soul if that ever happend god forbids it ever does.. |
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sam
Snake mite
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 15:57:10
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Washing hands is not good enouth, it can be passed even through clothing.
Have you has a post mortem done after having the snake PTS? Just to 100% clarify that its IBD, as snakes cant be 100% tested untill they have died from it or been PTS. |
Visit www.AS-Exotics.co.uk
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sam
Snake mite
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 15:58:09
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| I also wouldnt buy any more snakes for a good 6 months - 1 year, Or sell any snakes you have or equipment. |
Visit www.AS-Exotics.co.uk
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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 17:11:35
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in response to you all...
firstly thanks loads to everyone, especially cliff for your kind words and especially for your praise. Im just doing what any responsible snake keeper would do but its really appreciated. Just to let you all know, Prisma died before he was PTS and a post mortem is being done as we speak.
I have dicarded or destroyed all contents of his viv except the stats, thermometer and viv itself which are all on a vetinarian advised 4 week sterilisation cycle. The shop from which Prisma was purchased was notified the next day. I will not take in any other snakes for at least 4-8 weeks. The reason for the short time is that all my others are pythons/corns and the disease in pythons, if active, will appear very quickly and unfortunately kill the snake within 4 weeks whereas boas can hide it much longer. All Boids can carry it without showing it so NO ONE who has a Boa (or a python for that matter but its much more common in boas) can say that their collection is DEFINITELY IBD free. the only way to diagnose in a living specimen is liver biopsy but this is hard to show conclusively if a dormant form of IBD is present.
At the moment, touch wood, both my pythons seem fine. Both can "right themselves" very quickly (the best home test for IBD) and both are eating well, excreting well and constatntly flicking their tongues, all positive signs for general good health.
@sam specifically: i wash my hands and fore-arms and the snakes dont actually touch my clothing when im cleaning them out, checking them etc. Obviously they do when i handle them but i am taking every precaution possible to stop the virus spreading (eg i will only handle one snake per day at the moment.) That said, as much as i AM being careful to take these precautions, no one is actually certain HOW this retrovirus* spreads. bacause of its long dormancy and variable gestation period, it is almost impossible to "track". For this reason prevention is all that can be done but to that end, only realistic practical measures are worth taking. There are links with it being spread through excretory aerosolisations (eg urine vapour) as well as through mites and obvioulsy through direct contact but not one of these theories can yield an exact and final answer for how IBD is spread or for that matter, exactly how it works. Obviously i wouldnt want to put any other animals at risk but there is only so much i can do and i assure you, if i can do it, I am.
@hiper- yes IBD is an incredibly contagious virus, though as i said, noone knows for sure how it spreads. it is also possible for a snake, especially a Boa to have the disease its whole life and never show it. This would not make the carrier immune. (eg if snake a is a carrier and actively infects snake B, snake A could then contract the active strain and be sunject to the symptoms.) THAT SAID as much as it is more common in boas it is still VERY rare and im sure, touch wood, that you dont have to worry. There is no real way of guaranteeing you dont have it if you keep boids of any description, all you can do is follow strict cleanliness techniques and show generally good husbandry to stop the infection spreading if there is one. Cant stress enough, dont panic, its VERY rare! :) i wouldnt want anyone else or their snake to go through what Prisma and i did. In all honesty its one of the only things to properly make me cry for about ten years. but right there with ya, god forbid it happens to you or anyone else. thanks for your symapthy :)
I will keep you all posted on my other snakes progress but hopefully, we're looking good. (touching wood again!) An unfortunate side effect is that i will now almost certainly never again risk including a Boa in my little snake family. They are beautiful and one of my favourite snakes but i am not prepared to risk going through this again and it is not fair on my other snakes to expose them to this threat a second time. harsh i know, but this has been, and is still, really hard for me.
Thanks again to everyone, once again especially Cliff (and also Hiper and sam) and sorry to go on and on, just feel this is an area where details are important.
*IBD is the disease caused BY a virus thought to be a retro-virus. the virus itself is NOT IBD. it is also still a cantentious issue that the virus is a retro virus and not an all out neurovirus. this again cannot be establishment because of the diffulculty in tracking contagion.
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R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
Edited by - benji54 on 03/02/2011 17:16:58 |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 21:22:33
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Benji, I'm so sorry to hear he passed. At least he's free from any suffering now, and had a compassionate caregiver for his last days.
Your knowledge of the disease is impressive, and again I appreciate you publicly sharing it.
Ash, it is correct that there is no way to prevent IBD for sure. However, the three main steps are this:
1. Buy only from private breeders with sterling reputations and multiple references. While I love attending shows, I've never risked a purchase there, and probably never will
2. Quarantine, quarantine, quarantine. Many people use 30, 60, or even 90 days. I used 180 for every new source, and 90 for sources I've successfully dealt with before
3. Be careful even with simple supplies like moss. It sounds like odd advice, but I know of one person who got mites from a moss purchase, and as mites are a possible vector for IBD...:-(
Again Benji, sorry for your loss. Best of luck with your pythons, and please continue to visit us every now and then! |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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sam
Snake mite
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 22:17:55
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Sorry if i missed it whilst reading the reply but did a postmortem get done once the snake had passed? To be sure. As it is rare and almost unheard of in brbs.
But rip little snakey. |
Visit www.AS-Exotics.co.uk
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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 11:38:31
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thanks sam and cliff again.
@sam: yeah a PM being done as we speak. well, the full PM was >£250 so i had to settle for sending off tissue samples. i know its never good to be tight where pets are concerned but i just havent got £250 knocking about at the mo. still the vet said results should still be accurate if the brain and liver are sent, which they have been. :(
@cliff: thanks again. i do try to do pretty in depth research before i buy a pet and this includes investigating the worst case scenarios and little rarities. My missus has bearded dragons and i managed to impress my vet by turning up with a diagnosis and a care/treatment plan already done when one got ill! i did the same with my royal last year too. im looking at doing a herpotology course through compass or someone too. BTW i agree with your steps, all my snakes came from the same shop (even the rescue came via the store) and all my moss and substrate comes from one of 3 places, all recognized dealers. Prisma was still in his quarantine period which has hopefully stopped the virus spreading.
Dont worry ill still visit you guys (if thats ok, though technically i no longer qualify?? :S ) and ill of course keep you all updated on results. |
R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 17:42:15
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I hear you on the cost. You could get multiple new snakes for that same amount. If I were a non-breeder, I would have sent samples, too.
I would urge you to take the herp course: with your thorough approach and experience you'd be great at it. Of course, if you become a world-renowned herp expert, we'll have revisit the whole no-more-boas issue! ;-)
And LOL, as a former rainbow owner, you will always qualify! |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 18:25:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Snakesitter
I hear you on the cost. You could get multiple new snakes for that same amount. If I were a non-breeder, I would have sent samples, too.
I would urge you to take the herp course: with your thorough approach and experience you'd be great at it. Of course, if you become a world-renowned herp expert, we'll have revisit the whole no-more-boas issue! ;-)
And LOL, as a former rainbow owner, you will always qualify!
Thanks! i would love a boa again someday, they are beautiful snakes!
been looking up the course today and i will try and enrol on it this year. im also going to do an independant study...havent exactly decided on my topic yet but im sure ill enjoy it. its just finding time as i run my own business too and its pretty hectic.
Thanks for the complements, as regards my "thorough approach and experience" i think you do me too much kindness!  ive only kept snakes for about 18 months, i just really apply myself to things like this. still, being a world renowned Herpetologist would be awesome! cheers again! |
R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 18:33:52
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| by the way are you also the snake sitter from another forum (i wont name) on which someone called "ashley" has like, completely neglected an IBD issue!?! i could have the wrong end of the stick but if what i think has happened IS whats happened, thats flat out ridiculous and really immoral! just my 2 cents lol! |
R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
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Snakesitter
Rainbow Master
USA
2718 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 21:10:35
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| I think I know the forum, assuming it starts with a "B." The post was December 26, 2010, and was a warning summary of an issue from a different forum, starting with an "F"? If so, I made a neutral comment on that specific post -- "Wow, 808 posts on that thread in less than one month, and counting. Thank you for bring this to the forum's attention (and summarizing!)." -- but am not the originator of it. Bad news all around, someone with confirmed IBD issues and no quarantine practice should *never* continue to sell animals. |
Cliff Earle
Living Gems Reptiles
Premium Brazilian Rainbow Boas from a disease-tested facility
Website, Facebook |
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benji54
Snake mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 11:36:36
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| yeah thats what i thought! :S ur quite right btw, that was the one. its not fair on new buyers or their collections and is very irresponsible...anyway, thats not really a convo for here eh? i was only looking for your website but apparently its not built yet? |
R.I.P Rainbow Boa "Prisma Pequeno"
1.0.0 Royal "Ophion"
1.1.0 Corns "Wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python "Serendipity"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "Truffle" |
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the worst news we could have had...IBD
